A few months ago, I stumbled upon a blog called Southern Female Lawyer, written by an East Tennessee attorney who claims to be very liberal, and promises to “judge you when you use poor grammar.” My kind of woman.
Not long ago, SFL posted an entry [UPDATE: The original post no longer exists] about a man who carried a gun into a grocery store without the proper permits, and apparently without the proper training. The weapon fell out of his pocket, discharged, and the round struck an employee in the hip. Southern Female Lawyer thinks this is a bad thing, and told us so. This, of course, sparked a somewhat heated discussion with a Second Amendment advocate in Texas who calls himself Bob S. and runs a pro-gun blog called 3 Boxes of BS. Hilarity ensued.
Southern Female Lawyer does not hold the typically liberal position on these things, and doesn’t seem to have a problem with regulated concealed carry laws that require training and restrict where people can take their weapons. But she also seems to have little faith in the ability of the average gun owner, carrying a pistol around town in a holster, to act appropriately in emergency situations. She rightly points out that whether or not an armed citizenry is a good idea, there is a time and place for everything, and idiots with firearms who cause accidents give gun ownership a bad name.
Bob S. responds with a typical Second Amendment rant. He cannot be bothered to acknowledge that yes, the moron in the grocery store screwed up in a way that put others at risk, and should at least have to follow Tennessee’s fairly lax concealed carry laws. He also musters little logical argument, much less support for his case–indeed, he makes the demonstrably false claim that “the average Concealed Handgun License holder does a better job then the cops.”
A look at 3 Boxes of BS suggests that Mr. S.’s argument for arming citizens goes beyond personal safety and crime control. He also seems to think that the population needs firearms to protect themselves against a potentially despotic government. Like many of those who hold this view, his writing proves long on romantic discussions of free armed citizens striking fear into the hearts of government officials, but very little insight into just what conditions would justify insurrection, and exactly what such an armed revolt would look like.
I have not written much about guns or the Second Amendment here (yeah, I know, I haven’t written much of anything here, and thanks for reminding me). Briefly stated, I think that general gun ownership is a bad idea, from both a “most people are too irresponsible, stupid, or just plain evil to own guns” practical standpoint and because I think placing the safety and freedom of society in the hands of individuals harms us normatively by making collective action more difficult. I do not believe that the Founders intended to protect an individual right to be armed, nor that such a right is not subject to modification by society. While our system must protect minorities against tyrannical majorities, rights are contestable and depend on social agreement, nor violent assertion of self-proclaimed entitlement.
Wise people disagree, to be sure, and rightfully debate whether or not arming citizens makes society safer and freer. A good case can be made that putting weapons in the hands of certain types of people could help control or limit crime, and deter offenses like home invasions. And citizens must assert themselves when political institutions oppress them. I think an objective look at the evidence supports my view, but I am willing to be convinced. But “More kids are killed in drowning accidents then firearm accidents, more kids are killed in automobile accidents then accidental shootings” won’t get you there. Try harder, Bob S.
#1 by Bob S. at January 9th, 2010
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First, I don’t call myself Bob S. — I am Bob S.
That is my name.
Second, why can’t you tell the truth?
He cannot be bothered to acknowledge that yes, the moron in the grocery store screwed up in a way that put others at risk, and should at least have to follow Tennessee’s fairly lax concealed carry laws.
I never disagreed with her that the guy acted reckless and should face the consequences. Far from it
And when people act reckless or negligently cause injury with firearms they lose their licenses or liberty.
That was from one of my comments
I repeatedly stated that I disagreed with a small portion of her argument — that people need to be trained to the level of Law Enforcement or Military.
He also musters little logical argument, much less support for his case–indeed, he makes the demonstrably false claim that “the average Concealed Handgun License holder does a better job then the cops.”
I offered evidence at SFL for my case– where is your evidence to the contrary Sir?
He also seems to think that the population needs firearms to protect themselves against a potentially despotic government.
You mean like how the country was founded? When our forefathers rebelled against a despotic government with their personal arms?
Like many of those who hold this view, his writing proves long on romantic discussions of free armed citizens striking fear into the hearts of government officials, but very little insight into just what conditions would justify insurrection, and exactly what such an armed revolt would look like.
Why should I lay out what an armed revolt would look like when we aren’t near the conditions necessary – yet.
The 3 boxes in my blog title refer to the Soapbox, Ballot Box and Ammo Box. It is no coincidence that Ammo box is last.
Briefly stated, I think that general gun ownership is a bad idea, from both a “most people are too irresponsible, stupid, or just plain evil to own guns” practical standpoint
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Just as you can exercise your 1st amendment rights I can exercise mine to point out where I disagree.
Of course, you may think that most people are too irresponsible to own a firearm, but do you have any evidence or statistics to back it up?
Approximately 280,000,000 firearms in America – about 70,000,000 of those are handguns. And less then 200,000 firearm related injuries a year.
Kind of hard to say most people are too irresponsible when so few accidents and injuries occur.
There are more motor vehicle accidents and injuries — should people not own cars because they are too irresponsible?
because I think placing the safety and freedom of society in the hands of individuals harms us normatively by making collective action more difficult.
I would like to know what collective actions are made more difficult by the presence of my individually owned firearms?
Could you please elaborate?
I do not believe that the Founders intended to protect an individual right to be armed, nor that such a right is not subject to modification by society.
The writings of the Founders seem to indicate they did intent to protect an individual right to be armed.
See this site for some of those quotes
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html
And the right to keep and bear arms is subject to modification by society. Those are what we call laws…they already exist.
I can not carry my firearm into prison, I can not carry my firearms onto planes, etc. We have many laws already on the books.
While our system must protect minorities against tyrannical majorities, rights are contestable and depend on social agreement, nor violent assertion of self-proclaimed entitlement
Sorry but I disagree with this. My rights are not contestable. I have a right to live — do you contest that right ?
If I have a right to live, I have a right to defend myself against criminals – do you contest that?
My right to freedom is not dependent on social agreement — we fought a war within our country to make that uncontestable.
nor violent assertion of self-proclaimed entitlement
I am not nor have been violent. Discussing my rights and the rights of others is not violent.
Wise people disagree, to be sure, and rightfully debate whether or not arming citizens makes society safer and freer.
Absolutely, and when I tried to debate that at SFL, she shut down comments temporarily,
Isn’t it ironic that during that debate –my safety was threatened by someone who felt that people carrying arms shouldnt’ do so in public?
A good case can be made that putting weapons in the hands of certain types of people could help control or limit crime, and deter offenses like home invasions.
Please make your case. What evidence do you have showing that limiting access to firearms has deterred crime and made people safer.
It hasn’t worked in the United Kingdom despite a long history of gun control. After handguns were effectively banned in 1997, firearm related crime has doubled. The country now has a violent crime rate higher then America.
And citizens must assert themselves when political institutions oppress them. I think an objective look at the evidence supports my view, but I am willing to be convinced.
Present your evidence and convince me. I started online trying to find evidence to convince me that gun control was the way to go. I could not find it. So, I am willing to be convinced still if you can present the evidence that I have missed.
But “More kids are killed in drowning accidents then firearm accidents, more kids are killed in automobile accidents then accidental shootings” won’t get you there.
One very small part of an argument, you are right. By itself it isn’t enough. Stop by and read some of my past post. Look for “debunking availability” as an example.
On the other hand, I still don’t see anything in your position that would lead me to change my mind.
Thanks for the link back to your site.
#2 by R. Stanton Scott at January 9th, 2010
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Mr. S.,
Thank you for taking the time to stop by, and please allow me to recant my claim that you “cannot be bothered to acknowledge that yes, the moron in the grocery store screwed up in a way that put others at risk, and should at least have to follow Tennessee’s fairly lax concealed carry laws.”
While I believe that your comments at Southern Female Lawyer avoid a lot of the nuance inherent in this debate, I agree with you that I incorrectly characterized what you wrote in this respect.
Also, please accept my apologies if you took offense because I did not assume that your real name is Bob S. Given the way things work on the internet, and your use of an initial instead of your last name, I had no way of knowing whether this is your real name or a pseudonym until you so stated. Noted for future reference. And R. Stanton Scott is my real name, by the way, in case you had any doubt.
Please excuse me, however, if I resist the urge to respond to a “fisking” of my post. I find little value in discussing issues like this in such a lazy way. Responding to individual sentences without reference to where they fit into the larger arguments is more suited to taking what others say out of context than for an honest debate of issues (not that I necessarily think that it is your intent to either debate lazily or take my words out of context).
If you wish to respond to my post by developing a logical argument supported by facts, please do so and I will happily engage in a discussion. For example, the assertion “Even with all that ‘training’ cops are more likely to miss the person they are aiming at, more likely to shoot the wrong person, more likely to hit an innocent by stander then those with concealed carry licenses” does not by itself support the claim that “the average Concealed Handgun License holder does a better job then the cops.” Even if this is in some sense true, which I doubt, to get my attention you must cite the research you use to support this very broad and poorly defined claim. I would like a chance to evaluate and if possible debunk it.
Again, thanks for expressing your viewpoint.
#3 by Bob S. at January 9th, 2010
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R. R.Scott, R.Scott Stanton (what is the short version?)
I did take offense at your assumption because it seemed an attempt to belittle not identify.
I apologize if you took my style to be a fisking. I always found it difficult to follow an argument when it was difficult to determine what the respondent was referencing from the original post. Hence, the use of quotations instead of a lengthy possibly rambling reply.
As far as my assertions without evidence, I can not win for loosing it seems. On many other blogs, I’m accused of overwhelming with statistics.
Another aspect is the fact that when I post statistics, the person holding the counter opinion often discounts or ignores that information because I posted it.
Did you believe my statement? Did you seek information to prove it valid or invalid or simply discount it?
I find the information dug up by personally to have greater impact than presented facts and figures.
Here is a start
Another study examined newspaper reports of gun incidents in Missouri, involving police or civilians. In this study, civilians were successful in wounding, driving off, capturing criminals 83% of the time, compared with a 68% success rate for the police. Civilians intervening in crime were slightly less likely to be wounded than were police. Only 2% of shootings by civilians, but 11% of shootings by police, involved an innocent person mistakenly thought to be a criminal. [145]
http://rkba.org/ccw/shall-issue.html
#4 by Thomas at January 9th, 2010
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Boomer Lad wonders how “Mr. Scott” feels about recreational NFA weaponry being as the only person that has killed anybody with a legal NFA weapon in the course of civilian life in anything approaching recent history was an OHIO POLICE OFFICER that murdered somebody. NFA owners are by default quite law abiding as it’s a pre-req for ownership. Same with getting a Concealed License for that matter.
Just curious. Perhaps we should disarm all LEOs because they might make a mistake or be unstable? Military too? Both Law Enforcement and Military Service have quite high rates of depression, suicidal ideation, and substance abuse before you even get in the area of ARMED GOVERNMENT AGENTS THAT CARRY WEAPONS AS PART OF THEIR JOB that have ACTUALLY BEEN DIAGNOSED with PTSD or various anti-social disorders and are still in the same jobs.
Care to enlighten us on how it’s not OK for a normal civilian to have a firearm or class of arms or access to a form of carrying said arms but it’s OK for “‘more often than the average civilian,’ often disturbed” government agents to have them?
Cheers,
Thomas Harris
I use my REAL NAME TOO because
I’m not afraid of the internet
#5 by R. Stanton Scott at January 9th, 2010
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Please call me Stan.
I do not believe that “the average concealed carry permit holder does a better job than the cops,” mostly because I’m not really sure what this statement even means. Better job at hitting targets? As resolving tense situations? At arresting criminals? At deterring crime?
But I don’t immediately discount the notion that some gun owners can effectively use handguns to protect themselves, and I would love to see evidence that what you say is in some sense true. As an academic, my interest is in correctly describing and analyzing society, not promoting a specific viewpoint.
As for the statistics you cite here, my top-of-the-head challenge would be to suggest that the discrepancies you list have something to do with the disparity in the types of situations each group confronts, and the difference in obligation each has to act. But I’ll take a closer look and see what I think.
Have no fear of overwhelming me with statistics. I am more than capable of digesting and interpreting them, and though the source of evidence matters–some are simply biased, on both sides–I will never discount research simply because of who offered it.
And thanks again for your perspective.
#6 by mike w. at January 9th, 2010
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He cannot be bothered to acknowledge that yes, the moron in the grocery store screwed up in a way that put others at risk
And here you are deliberately misrepresenting Bob’s position. Bob, myself, nor any other pro-gun comment at SFL’s place said anything that supported the irresponsible and criminal actions of the idiot that SFL used as an example.
The fact that you support SFL’s behavior and consider it “hilarity” is quite sad. Do you really consider her and her husband’s nasty, threatening, and overall petulant behavior hilarious? Supporting people who act like them does not reflect well upon you.
#7 by Thomas at January 9th, 2010
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Didn’t say the average permit holder would do a better job.
I said that, statistically speaking (and it is because of the line of work they are in and they somewhat self-select as well), Military and LEOs are more likely to have mental health issues that would be possible good cause to disqualify them from possession of weaponry. The fact that the current system isn’t doing much re: PTSD treatment doesn’t help, but it’s just a career fact.
No offense, but if you had ever spent significant time around Military and LEO social circles you would have noticed this yourself, as you notice that the sky is blue and the moon is white, without even thinking about it.
This is entirely different than if I were to say that private citizens “do a better job” and that wasn’t at all my intent. I was just stating relative dangers of weapon ownership. My brother in law is an ELECTED CONSTABLE and he prefers to hire older people for his department with some years in as a means to weed out at least some of the loose cannons. Give an 18-25 year old a power-trip friendly uniform and weaponry and odd things can happen that can be quite dangerous. Same reason his department still will not issue tasers to anybody. I think it may be the only force in Texas with no tasers. He’s seen too much abuse and mistaken usage such as the Chicago area diabetic case by general “good guy cops” to want them issued.
I’ll admit BIL is an aberration, as most LEO and Military supervisors don’t question the judgment of what they allow their personnel as to weaponry, but he’s a rather thoughtful man who has to deal with officer mental health issues on a routine basis.
#8 by R. Stanton Scott at January 9th, 2010
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Mike,
Please see apology and recantation of that statement above. And yes, I find the entire discussion hilarious, since no one really ever paid any attention to anything anyone else said. And people used all caps, as if that makes what they say true.
Thomas,
Please use care when you discuss military service. I was a career combat soldier in the Army, and since this makes me likely to be mentally ill, you never know how I might react.
#9 by Bob S. at January 9th, 2010
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Stan,
See you once again mischaracterize things at a minimum.
You claim no one really ever paid attention to anything anyone else said….but my comments were directly related to what SFL said, discussed points she raised or mentioned. So how is that not paying attention?
I think the issue was she made a sweeping generalization that if unchecked could….not the word, could…impact our right to keep and bear arms.
I often ask people who support gun control if they would support the same restrictions if applied to other rights.
would you support a restriction of the right to free speech (that you are enjoying on this blog) unless you had a journalism degree and had been published by a paying nationally known magazine?
Isn’t that fairly equivalent to her “only leos/military and been in an emergency situation”?
That is also something you’ve not addressed; don’t you think that is a very unreasonable standard to be advocated?
#10 by Thomas at January 9th, 2010
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In case you choose to react oddly, my dad is a Retired Lt. Col. (USAF) who was Chief of Staff at one point of the Battle Creek, Michigan VAMC Psychiatric Facility. Although h is not a pschiatric M.D. by trade, he could probably fix you up if need be and this conversation makes you truly anxious. He still is friends with many people still in VAMC and Military Medicine. It’d be better than me having to defensively shoot you if you were to come around my gunsmith shop with violent intent
Cheers and — If you Served, You Know What I Said is TRUE unless you served in the “101st Imaginary Combat Veterans With No Problems Teetotaler’s Brigade” or even in the Non-Combatant Auxiliary Reserve Unit of Similar Name.
#11 by R. Stanton Scott at January 9th, 2010
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Bob,
Yes, I would characterize the conversation at SFL as a bunch of people talking past each other. No establishment of the terms of debate, no focus on a question, no definitions. Just a bunch of people fisking each other. I refuse to apologize for having this opinion, or for finding the whole thing funny. Sorry if this offends you though.
And I never set out to address each and every point raised over there. I do have some thoughts on how concealed carry should be restricted, but right now I have a very hot date with my lovely wife and a Cajun Ribeye at Morton’s, so it will have to wait.
#12 by Thomas at January 9th, 2010
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Well, Rural Texas vote is: At least you aren’t a vegan but blackening a Ribeye sounds a tad weird. Funny how many things are “cajun” most Cajuns wouldn’t cook.
#13 by R. Stanton Scott at January 10th, 2010
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Thomas, I think the “Cajun” in the name refers to the spice rub, not the cooking method. This steak is not blackened.
But I went with the Chicago Style bone-in ribeye this time. Thicker cut, and the bone gives it more flavor. And for the record, I like my meat on the red side.
As for vegans: I’m a member of the “I love animals–they taste great” school, and think the fool who dreamed up “tofurkey” belongs in Guantanamo.
One of the best meals I had in the army included a field-dressed deer one of us hit with a Hummer. But don’t tell the CO.
#14 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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Have no fear of overwhelming me with statistics. I am more than capable of digesting and interpreting them.
Given our fairly one-sided “discussion” here over the past month it is quite clear that your above statement has turned out to be false.