Though fairly well-read in constitutional law, history, and political science, I am no expert on the gun rights v. gun control debate. But since I do have a policy preference with respect to guns, and I intend to involve myself in discussions with people on both sides of this discussion as a way to promote my preferred policy, perhaps I should lay out my thinking on the subject.
First, as I’ve written here on this blog and elsewhere, I do not accept the concept of “inalienable” rights. Rights are always contestable, and justice claims compete with one another. This competition occurs in a context of social discourse and relations that privilege some claims over others. Sometimes power and force determines winners, and sometimes prevailing social norms settle the claims. But rights have no source other than power, discourse, and shared social understandings. They exist only in the sense and to the extent that we understand them as part of social reality. Indeed, writing them down in constitutional documents and then applying them inconsistently (non-citizens have no constitutional protection, for example) suggests that even people who claim a natural source of rights do not believe that this make specific justice claims universally valid.
Also, I think that the people who wrote the founding constitutional documents for the United States included the Second Amendment as a balance to the Article 1 Section 8 power of Congress “To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia.” Anti-Federalists worried that the central government would provide for a standing army and then use this authority to disarm state militias, leaving the States less sovereign and vulnerable to abuse. Southerners, especially, felt open to an indirect attack on slavery–without militias, they could not control the slave population or quell slave revolts, so they worried that Congress could end the institution by disarming them. Without this collective power to subdue the black population, they could not continue to keep them in servitude, whether or not the institution remained technically legal. In any event, the Founder’s writings and the debates on the Constitution contain more evidence for this view than for the alternative–that they intended to protect an individual right to self defense.
With respect to policy, I am familiar with the academic literature and statistical evidence on the effectiveness of gun control laws, and the research on whether the prevalence of gun ownership or carry laws deter crime or limit criminal activity. I know that John Lott fabricated at least some of his surveys, and that Duggan offers a powerful critique, first in terms of increased gun ownership correlating with an increased homicide rate, but more importantly with respect to the limited effect increased gun ownership has on other crime. I am also familiar enough with the work of other researchers, (e.g., Kleck, Gertz, Hemenway, McDowall, Loftin and Presser, and others) to think that their work does not conclusively establish that gun control is effective, or that increased gun ownership has an effect on crime except to make it more likely in households where guns are present. This should surprise no one, since research like this rarely gives conclusive answers.
My experience discussing the issue over the last week or so (e.g. here, here, and here, with these four gentlemen participating, as well as on FBL), has given me insight into non-academic arguments in support of gun rights. This consists chiefly of a claim that any collective right to keep and bear arms must carry embedded within it a corollary individual right, since, variously, militia members could not fight their way to the formation site, or would have to depend on government to arm them, or…something. I think this could be an interesting and potentially persuasive point in the hands of someone willing and able to support it with logic and evidence, and I would like to hear the argument. Instead, gun rights supporters like Mike and Linoge rely on repetitive stating of the point in the form of “gotcha” questions, along with “if I’m one so are you” finger pointing, or whining that gun control supporters are bad people because one of them admitted owning a gun illegally, another threatened to punch someone’s face in, and that British woman says mean things about gun owners. This rhetorical debating style makes them sound more like ten year olds on a playground worried that the teacher will take their toys than grown up humans with a principled point to make. In any event, I haven’t seen a coherent defense of this claim beyond repetitive demands that I explain how they could be wrong about this (which I give, at least in part, here, by the way).
The gun rights proponents with whom I have discussed this issue lately also like to argue from anecdote. Many gun rights sites consist largely of examples of criminal acts combined with an assertion that the victim(s) could have defended themselves had they been armed, or of armed citizens who somehow deterred or stopped a criminal. This often includes massaged statistics (see links above) showing the prevalence of crime and the failure of government to act, whether generally or in specific cases. This seems intended to create an impression that rampant crime requires an armed citizenry, and usually comes couched in “don’t-you-want-to-protect-your-family,” and “what-if-your-daughter-gets-raped” rhetoric. * All of this suggests belief in a “1% solution” social environment, where the slightest risk of becoming a crime victim requires constant vigilance and pervasive arming of citizens, both public and private, to keep the evil criminals, who are everywhere, from walking up the driveway to rape and pillage while pretending to ask for help because their car broke down.
Interestingly, gun rights proponents also claim a right to kill in defense of property, often of small and inconsequential nature. This proposes an interesting perspective on a serious justice claim conflict: that one can forfeit their “natural” claim to a survival right by committing a property crime, even if the crime in question comes in the interest of protecting the “natural” survival right. That is, a property owner has a right to kill a trespasser in an apple orchard, for example, even if the trespasser seeks only food for survival, but the starving trespasser has no right to a justice claim on the food as part of his own “natural right” to live. For many, this is true without regard to whether the option of calling authorities to enforce property crime laws is available. This suggests that gun rights proponents believe that they need weapons in part to self-enforce their property rights against others’ right to survival. If so, this puts them in the position of arguing that competing rights claims can be adjudicated only by brute force–whichever party has more power can win the claim–or by development of social understandings which shame one party or another. The “natural” source of the right makes no difference here–gun rights proponents often win preference for their claim today because human social relations shame the thief more than the property owner who kills to defend ownership of a couple of apples against a starving man.
In the end, I think Mark Tushnet calls it correctly in Out of Range: Why the Constitution Can’t End the Battle Over Guns. He offers a comprehensive analysis of the Constitutional question which associates the Second Amendment more with militia service than an individual right of arms or self defense, but concludes that the debate is a cultural one which depends more on how the different sides in the debate see themselves as Americans, and how they believe society should organize itself to settle competing claims. This divide probably cannot be bridged by debates over the Founder’s intent, or by tossing around anecdotes, statistics, or theoretical discussions of the sources of rights. Tushnet’s conclusion instead supports my view that only cultural change will settle this question, as I believe it eventually will move society toward more restrictions on gun use.**
Whether or not I can change the minds of the gun rights folks I have engaged as of late–or even get them to consider an alternate point of view–I plan to continue, since I learn a lot through this process. Indeed, this discussion has caused me to reevaluate some of my previously held views on the issue. It has also helped me think through how normative discourse can change social understandings in some issue areas, which helps with other work I do. Whether or not they wish to engage in reasoned discussion, I invite gun rights supporters to participate.
* At least one will respond, “Well, don’t you want to protect your family?” as if this makes their point about intrinsic individual rights.
**Gun rights proponents will take this statement as a sign that I prefer this outcome. In their world, simply stating that I expect a certain outcome means that I prefer it, if it conflicts with their own preference.
#1 by Linoge at January 24th, 2010
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False dichotomy – yet another in your long line of logical fallacies.
Apparently the concept of “your rights end at another man’s nose” excaped you during your exmaination of the situation.
Indeed, we all have an inherent right to exist. Likewise, we all have an inherent right to protect our property – after all, that property is a product of me, my efforts, my work, my time. After a fashion, that property is me.
However, those two rights are not, in any way, contradictory when applied to a starving man and an orchard-owner. While the starving man has as much right to exist as any other human being, he has no right to demand or take a product from another human without a duly-agreed upon compensation. But, then again, indicating that theft is a right is probably not a far step for someone drawing moral parallels between cattle and humans.
#2 by Mike at January 24th, 2010
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Bring facts then. Let’s see your hard data! Your side has nothing but massaged “studies” and anecdotes while I have actual hard data from FBI ucr reports and the bjs
#3 by Laci The Dog at January 24th, 2010
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repetitive demands that I explain how they could be wrong about this
Not as good as Mike W.’s repeated assertions that the Heller dissents encompassed an Individual Second Amendment right outside the context of militia service, which when read in their entirity proved he didn’t read or understand what he was quoting.
that British woman says mean things about gun owners.
Boo Hoo!
Stan, I wish you luck in this enterprise. Cheers,
Laci’s Owner
#4 by mike w. at January 24th, 2010
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And I’m supposed to trust the reasoning ability of some moron 50 year old dude who can’t even get something as simple as whether Vermont has Statewide preemption of firearms law right?
Gonna quote that FAQ to me again Laci because you’re too ignorant to actually read the state statutes?
#5 by Laci the Dog at January 24th, 2010
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As I said before, I think I trust the VT state Police and AG’s Office far more than I trust you.
And I have read the VT statutes
13 VT Statutes Chapter 85 §§ 4001 – 4016
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/sections.cfm?Title=13&Chapter=085
#6 by Laci the Dog at January 24th, 2010
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Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 24, § 2291(8), as amended by 2006 Vt. Acts 173 § 3, provides that, “[f]or the purpose of promoting the public health, safety, welfare and convenience,” a town, city or incorporated village shall have the power to “regulate or prohibit the use or discharge, but not possession of, firearms within the municipality or specified portions thereof, provided that an ordinance adopted under this subdivision shall be consistent with section 2295 of this title and shall not prohibit, reduce, or limit discharge at any existing sport shooting range, as that term is defined in section 5227 of title 10.”
Vermont Statutes Annotated title 24, § 2295 states:
Except as otherwise provided by law, no town, city or incorporated village, by ordinance, resolution or other enactment, shall directly regulate hunting, fishing and trapping or the possession, ownership, transportation, transfer, sale, purchase, carrying, licensing or registration of traps, firearms, ammunition or components of firearms or ammunition. This section shall not limit the powers conferred upon a town, city or incorporated village under section 2291(8) of this title. The provisions of this section shall supersede any inconsistent provisions of a municipal charter.
Although the title of section 2295, “Authority of municipal and county governments to regulate firearms, ammunition, hunting, fishing and trapping,” expressly includes counties, the text does not. Counties in Vermont appear to have no legislative authority and are primarily responsible for the organization of the county court system. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 24, §§ 131 et seq.
Although there are no cases interpreting sections 2291(8) or 2295, the Vermont Attorney General has analyzed whether section 2295 would prevent law enforcement from conducting voluntary background checks on prospective handgun purchasers pursuant to the Brady Act. 1997 Vt. AG LEXIS 1, Op. Vt. Att’y Gen. 97-2 (July 23, 1997).
The Attorney General noted that section 2295 prohibits the direct regulation of “the possession, ownership, transportation, transfer, sale, purchase, carrying, licensing or registration of . . . firearms, ammunition” or their components.” 1997 Vt. AG LEXIS 1, Op. Att’y Gen. 97-2 at *2.
The Attorney General reasoned that, in performing a background check, law enforcement is not “directly” regulating the transaction, “but is merely determining if the transaction would violate federal law.” Id. Because of this lack of “direct” regulation, the Attorney General concluded that nothing in section 2295 would prevent law enforcement from conducting a voluntary background check. Id.
Under Vermont Statutes Annotated title 16, § 563(5), school boards have the power to regulate or prohibit firearms on school premises. School boards must adopt and implement policies regarding students who bring to or possess firearms at school. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 16, § 1166.
A number of cities in Vermont have municipal charters that specifically grant city bodies the authority to regulate or prohibit the possession and use of firearms. See, e.g., Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 24A, §§ 17-2.4(b)(4), 127-104(2). The enforceability of such provisions is unclear in light of sections 2291(8) and 2295. In SBC Enterprises, Inc. v. City of South Burlington Liquor Control Commission, 689 A.2d 427, 429 (Vt. 1996), a case not involving firearms, the Supreme Court of Vermont held that a city’s charter provided sufficient authorization for the city’s entertainment ordinance. The court explicitly stated that it did not need to decide whether section 2291 also authorized the ordinance. Id.
Vermont Statutes Annotated title 10, § 5227(b) provides that the owner or operator of a sport shooting range, and any person lawfully using the range, who is in substantial compliance with any noise use condition of any issued municipal or state land use permit required by law shall not be subject to any civil liability for damages or any injunctive relief resulting from noise or noise pollution. If no municipal or state land use permit is otherwise required by law, then the owner or operator of the range and any person lawfully using the range shall not be subject to any civil liability for damages or any injunctive relief relating to noise or noise pollution. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 10, § 5227(c).
Vermont Statutes Annotated title 10, § 5227(d) states: “Nothing in this section shall prohibit or limit the authority of a municipality or the state to enforce any condition of a lawfully issued and otherwise required permit.” However, even when the range is found to be not in substantial compliance with a municipal or state land use permit, a nuisance claim against the range may only be brought by an owner of property abutting the range. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 10, § 5227(e)(1)(added by 2006 Vt. Act 173, § 1). Furthermore, the range shall have a rebuttable presumption that the range does not constitute any form of nuisance if the range was established prior to the acquisition of the property owned by the person bringing the nuisance claim, and the frequency of the shooting or other alleged nuisance activity at the range has not significantly increased since that person’s acquisition of the property. Id. This presumption may be rebutted only by an abutting property owner showing that “the activity has a noxious and significant interference with the use and enjoyment” of his or her property. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 10, § 5227(e)(2) (added by 2006 Vt. Act 173, § 1).
Please see the Preemption section of the Master List of Firearms Policies for a general discussion of this issue, as well as the Federal Preemption section of the Federal Law Summary page.
#7 by Laci the Dog at January 24th, 2010
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Mikey, Mikey, I’m waiting for you to do something stupid with a gun and lose your gun rights permanently.
If you are as poor performer with a firearm as you are a debater, that shouldn’t take too long.
#8 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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a town, city or incorporated village shall have the power to “regulate or prohibit the use or discharge, but not possession of, firearms within the municipality or specified portions thereof, provided that an ordinance adopted under this subdivision shall be consistent with section 2295
Someone doesn’t understand what statewide preemption actually is. PA for example has statewide preemption. No preemption statute I’ve ever seen prohibited localities from regulating discharge / use of firearms. The preemption statutes prohibit localities from passing laws stricter than state law with regards to possession and carriage of arms. That’s why it says the ordinances in question must be in accordance with section 2295.
The Attorney General noted that section 2295 prohibits the direct regulation of “the possession, ownership, transportation, transfer, sale, purchase, carrying, licensing or registration of . . . firearms, ammunition” or their components.”
Yup, that’s because 2295 IS THE PREEMPTION STATUTE. You do understand what 2295 prohibits localities from doing correct? Similar preemption laws here are the reason why say the city of Newark DE can’t pass a law prohibiting open carry, or instituting an assault weapons ban, because the state preemption statute prohibits the city from passing such laws. They can however have a law against illegal discharge of firearms, since that is not prohibited by preemption (and isn’t by any preemption statute I’ve ever seen)
Do you understand what preemption statutes are at all, what they prohibit and why? Your post shows a supreme level of misunderstanding.
#9 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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You practice in DC, so I suppose you don’t have any familiarity with statewide preemption of firearms laws.
That said, you’re from Philly, and PA has preemption, so I’d think perhaps you had a better grasp of this.
Statewide preemption is the reason why it’d be illegal for Philly to pass an assault weapon ban, ban concealed carry, or pass a lost & stolen ordinance. In fact they tried to pass said ordinance a while back and DA Abraham informed the city that they had no legal authority to pass it. If they’d passed it it would have been in violation of state law and any person arrested under the ordinance could not have been prosecuted by the State of PA.
#10 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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Are you seeing this idiocy Linoge (& Mr. Scott) the woman is incapable of even reading a simple statute.
#11 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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Oh, and since you quite clearly don’t believe me and cant read statutes, here it is directly from the gun control folks themselves. The Brady Campaign.
This is more for Mr. Scott’s benefit, since Laci is far beyond help.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/VT
Local Gun Laws – Preemption
May cities enact laws stronger than the state’s? No
State law forbids local city or county governments from enacting any local gun laws… This preemption of local government authority makes it impossible for cities to enact sensible gun laws to make their citizens safer
That is the very definition of statewide preemption. It prohibits cities / localities from enacting gun control laws which are stricter than those enacted at the state level. Vermont has it.
Sick of being proven wrong yet Laci?
#12 by Laci the Dog at January 25th, 2010
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Mikey, Put your money where your mouth is, go to Vermont and carry a firearm.
I wish I knew which of these Vermont towns and cities have local ordinances, but violate the local ordinance and see what happens.
As the report quoted said:
“A number of cities in Vermont have municipal charters that specifically grant city bodies the authority to regulate or prohibit the possession and use of firearms. See, e.g., Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 24A, §§ 17-2.4(b)(4), 127-104(2). The enforceability of such provisions is unclear in light of sections 2291(8) and 2295. In SBC Enterprises, Inc. v. City of South Burlington Liquor Control Commission, 689 A.2d 427, 429 (Vt. 1996), a case not involving firearms, the Supreme Court of Vermont held that a city’s charter provided sufficient authorization for the city’s entertainment ordinance. The court explicitly stated that it did not need to decide whether section 2291 also authorized the ordinance. Id.”
It’s nice to discuss this stuff in the abstract, but I wouldn’t have a job if it were all cut and dry.
If the Vermont State Police advises that:
“Please be aware that Vermont does not at this time require or issue gun permits. Some Vermont towns and cities do have local ordinances, so if you are planning on visiting, it would be wise to contact the local police chief to find information pertaining to local information.”
It might be worth heeding their advice.
But, you Mikey are all wise and know everything. I hope your knowledge is correct when you do have your first run in with the cops.
#13 by Laci the Dog at January 25th, 2010
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OK, The City of Winooski
The Vermont Statutes Online
Title 24 Appendix: Municipal Charters
Chapter 17: CITY OF WINOOSKI
24 V.S.A. App. § 17-2.4. General powers and duties
(4) To adopt, amend, repeal and enforce ordinances relating to the regulation or prohibition of the possession and use of dangerous objects and substances, and of firearms, air rifles, and other weapons and devices having a capacity to inflict personal injury, and to provide for the enforcement of penalties for violation or nonperformance.
And
The Vermont Statutes Online
Title 24 Appendix: Municipal Charters
Chapter 127: TOWN OF MIDDLEBURY
(2) To adopt and enforce police ordinances regulating or prohibiting the use of firearms, air rifles and devices having a capacity to inflict personal injury, and the parking, operation and speed of vehicles of any kind upon Town and State aid streets and highways, private and public property, and to regulate or prohibit any activities constituting a hazard to the safety or health of the public.
OK, Mikey, go to Middlebury or WInooski and see if their laws are legal.
If Vermont were such a firearms heaven, why hasn’t everybody moved there?
I won’t debate you about this, I’ll challenge you to go to either ot these Vermont Towns and test the legality of their local gun laws.
Be a real gun rights hero and put action over talk.
#14 by R. Stanton Scott at January 25th, 2010
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My point, exactly, is that “my rights end at another man’s nose,” Linoge. That is, they are contestable, and compete with each other. I make a presumption that both the right to property you accept and the right to sustenance the starving man asserts qualify as justice claims, and I point out that gun rights proponents don’t accept the latter as valid, But I do not say anything about whether I agree with this, and you put words in my mouth by assuming I do not.
You see no rights conflict because you see no right to survival to the starving man with no property (ability to pay)–that is, your property right trumps the starving man’s justice claim to food (which he asserts on the grounds that he has an inherent right to survival). Since a truly inherent right to survival would require distribution of sustenance without compensation–if in fact intrinsic to humans it would not depend on your adjudication of the competing rights claims–it looks like your “natural” survival right actually depends on the social relations infrastructure you prefer, in this case private ownership of the means of production embedded in a private market for food.
No “false dichotomy” exists here–these are competing rights claims, but one has little force because our shared understandings about “rights” without regard to their intrinsic nature. Since you react defensively to my suggestion that you believe you property rights trump a starving man’s right to sustenance without regard to his ability to pay, I presume you sense the moral implications of this view.
#15 by Linoge at January 25th, 2010
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Wow. Over five lies, multiple misdirections, one serious case of hypocrisy, more logical fallacies, and a complete missing of the point… again.
You were right before, over at Bob S.’ – there really is no point in debating much of anything with you.
#16 by R. Stanton Scott at January 25th, 2010
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If I missed your point, perhaps you failed to clearly make it.
And why not point out the “five lies, multiple misdirections, one serious case of hypocrisy,” and “logical fallacies” you detect?
#17 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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If I missed your point, perhaps you failed to clearly make it.
I’d say at this point it’s safe to say you miss quite a bit. Would it make one bit of difference if Linoge bothered to point out each and every one to you? Given experiences thusfar I can only conclude that you won’t respond with a reasoned, concise & substantive response anyway (if you respond at all)
You’ve also abandoned discussion on several of your posts, I suspect you’ll do much the same here.
#18 by R. Stanton Scott at January 25th, 2010
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Well, I suppose that if you have nothing interesting to say about something you disagree with, one way to react would be to call the author a liar without elaborating on the nature of the lie.
Or simply make a blanket statement that I have not responded effectively to your challenges, whether or not I have addressed specific points.
Of course, you guys can always just go off and talk amongst yourselves if you don’t like the discussion here.
#19 by mike w. at January 25th, 2010
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I won’t debate you about this
Well of course not, can’t have people learning just how much of a liar you actually are.
You sidestepped comments 8-11 because they prove you wrong as usual.
#20 by Weer'd Beard at January 26th, 2010
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“First, as I’ve written here on this blog and elsewhere, I do not accept the concept of “inalienable” rights”
Hey Stan, thanks for saving me the time, I knew I could quit reading right there, as the foundation of your entire post is wrong, much like a million dollar mansion built perched on a sand dune will simply tremble and fall as soon as the sea gets around to challenging the structure.
I think I’m done with your tomfoolery.
#21 by mike w. at January 26th, 2010
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Of course, you guys can always just go off and talk amongst yourselves if you don’t like the discussion here
Given your obfuscation and general avoidance of any questions posed to you I don’t think we can really say there’s much “discussion” going on.
A “discussion” would require you to come up with articulate, reasoned counterpoints and actually engage in back & forth. You have failed miserably in doing so.
#22 by R. Stanton Scott at January 26th, 2010
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I responded to the only comment on this thread directed at me, Mike.
#23 by mike w. at January 26th, 2010
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Agreed, all that happened here was your buddy Laci making herself look bad.
Who said I was referring to this thread?