In response to my expressed concern that placing “placing the safety and freedom of society in the hands of individuals harms us normatively by making collective action more difficult,” my new friend Bob referred me to “Why the Gun is Civilization” by Marko Kloos. While somewhat interesting, I think Mr. Kloos greatly oversimplifies both the effect of introducing firearms into human interaction, and the nature of human interaction itself.
Kloos argues that human beings have only two ways to “deal with each other,” or interact: force or persuasion. After defining civilization as a society in which “people exclusively interact through persuasion,” Kloos states that because guns remove “the disparity in strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender” they remove “force from the [social interaction] menu,” thereby creating a civilized society whose members interact solely through persuasion.
Mr. Kloos makes several dubious assertions in this essay, and at least one which is simply factually wrong. He suggests, for example, that because a physically stronger party could beat a weaker defender to death–that is, lethal confrontation is possible without firearms–the presence of guns do not make otherwise innocuous confrontations lethal. Guns do not, of course, make every fight involving them a lethal one. But introducing firearms into innocuous confrontations–the kind which would not otherwise have become lethal–certainly increases the chance that one party or the other might be killed. Kloos asserts that this “works solely in favor of the weaker defender,” but it is not clear why only the physically weaker of the parties would think to carry a gun. In any event, guns may change the dynamic of a confrontation from “size wins” to “surprise wins,” but it does not make all confrontations even.
Mr. Kloos also argues that disarming citizens grants a “force monopoly” to muggers, creating “automatic rule” by the “young, the strong, and the many,” painting a dystopian image of young, physically powerful muggers roaming the streets, hitting Grandma up for her Social Security check before she can get to the Kroger to cash it. Of course, this hyperbolic statement assumes no other mechanism for protecting the weak than arming them, and it leaves the state entirely out of the equation. Since the state maintains the real force monopoly, and exercises it through its security agencies, Mr. Kloos’ roaming muggers would have at least some competition. Thinking otherwise depends on two contestable assumptions: that criminals could arm themselves despite a general firearms ban, and that the police are ineffective. Given that most Americans do not go through daily life with a sidearm, and muggers do not roam free to do as they please, it seems that the natural experiment of American life refutes Mr. Kloos’ statement.
Finally, the writer makes the demonstrably false statement: “When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.” Sorry, Mr. Kloos, but arming yourself does not take force off the table–it merely escalates the amount of force needed to bend your will. And this gets to the flaw in the writer’s reasoning: “force” and “persuasion” are not separate techniques for interacting with other humans. Force is simply a tool for persuading.
In fact, human interaction depends on overlapping “logics” of “appropriateness” and “consequences.” Social understandings about appropriate behavior, institutionalized in social roles (e.g., parent child relationships, workplace norms), do the majority of this work: most people don’t go around robbing others, whatever the “force” calculation, because they share an understanding that this is inappropriate. Instead, people follow rules they understand as natural, expected, and legitimate–they attempt to meet the obligations inherent in the roles and group memberships they take on.
Those who reject these rules–or self-identify with groups operating outside the prevalent social understandings of acceptable behavior–face the consequential logic. Actors who do go around robbing each other face both normative and objective punishment. But far more takes place as humans interact than a simple calculation of the distribution of force. A prohibition on the general public carrying of firearms would not lead to “automatic rule” by the young and the strong because social understandings of appropriate behavior would continue to shame this behavior, and the logic of consequences would keep it at the margins, and far from automatic.
Civilization does not depend, at its core, on a single hand held weapon which evens one-sided confrontations. Instead, shared understandings about appropriate behavior institutionalize identity, roles, and the rules and customs which guide our interactions. This includes the regulation of violence through adjudicating institutions intended to resolve conflict peacefully. We stigmatize violence outside of extreme situations, and we punish those who violate this norm.
We’re not in the state of nature any more, Mr. Kloos.
#1 by Laci The Dog at February 5th, 2010
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Also, this adds in the concept of an arms race where each party seeks to have more powerful weapons than the other. One must also add in the concept of strategy since mere possession of a weapon does not guarantee that it will deter a foe let alone guarantee success against that foe.
Likewise, unless changed by statute, the law of self-defence requires that reasonable force is used to stop the attack. Force beyond reason can lead to liabilty, both civil and criminal.
Also, the concept of self-defence is a defence or mitigation to a charge of a crime such as homicide or aggravated assault. One must prove that one had a reasonable basis to fear for their safety, unless that rule has been changed by statute.
While one may wish to be judged by 12 rather than carried by six, the twelve may disagree with the assertion of self-defence, especially when one uses a deadly weapon.
We live in some form of society (unless one wishes to move to Afghanistan or parts of Pakistan–even then there are rules), not the state of nature. Society has rules by which one lives.
#2 by Tam at February 5th, 2010
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So, really, you have no problem with guns at all, then, as long as they come with some shiny black knee-high boots.
Tell me why I should wait for the guy with a crewcut and a badge to show up with a gun.
#3 by Bob S. at February 6th, 2010
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Stan,
Talk about dubious statements
You say that introducing guns into ‘innocuous’ conversations increase the chance that one party or another might be killed, how?
You have any evidence to back that up?
Either the party is persuaded or force is used, the only change is the efficiency in which death can be delivered.
Since the physically stronger has the advantage in strength, increasing the ability of the weaker to be deadly equalizes the scale.
In the outcomes of a conversation I only see three outcomes – the party to be convinced is 1.) Convinced through persuasion, 2.) declines to go along or 3.) is made to comply through force; right?
So how does introducing a firearm change the situation for the one trying to force the issue? It doesn’t change the outcome only the efficiency.
The statement about the monopoly of force by criminals is true. There is no mechanism that the average citizen, other then weapons, that can negate that advantage. Law Enforcement can not be everywhere (and shouldn’t be) so the criminals have the advantage of picking their time.
Law enforcement is a reactive agency to crime, they have to either witness it or take action after the fact. Disarming the citizen still grants the advantage to the criminals, right?
No where do you show evidence that the average citizen is made safer by disarming them.
See Joe Huffman’s “Just One Question”.
I disagree with your conclusion that force is a tool of persuasion: (wikipedia)
Persuasion is a form of social influence. It is the process of guiding people and oneself toward the adoption of an idea, attitude, or action by rational and symbolic (though not always logical) means.
If a person is made to do something they have not adopted that idea or attitude – surely rape victims have not been persuaded to have sex with their attackers — but by your definition that would be true.
I’ll get to the rest later, have to take my in-laws to the airport.
#4 by Weer'd Beard at February 6th, 2010
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Because you igored my rebuttal in the previous post when you first voiced this theory, and I am seeing a pattern of avoiding of the debate from you, I won’t waste my time re-writing what still holds valid:
Stan do you really put any thought into these rebuttals?
“appropriateness”? How is that different than reasoning? Ones sense of what is appropriate is simply a construct of the influence of ones family, friends and culture at large.
Of course cultures and what is appropriate varies greatly from country-to-country, and even local to local. You can see families with career paths. The cop family, My entire family has college degrees. Ever noticed that Children of Indian Immigrants all seem to be Doctors, Lawyers, or Scientists?
Hell culturally it used to be Appropriate to force Negros to use separate facilities and restaurants. Used to be appropriate for Women to not own property, or vote.
And even if I was to validate your rebuttal, you’re a direct contradiction of it. Throughout American history the concept of Human Rights is directly contrary to your own claims. Yet you continue to claim it despite it being inappropriate.
Carrying of firearms for personal protection has been a continuous cultural norm. Thomas Jefferson often wrote about walking in the countryside with a pistol or a rifle. Hell Boston used to (still might) have a law MANDATING all men attend church armed in the event of an Indian raid. My friend owns a S&W Pocket safety revolver that was designed to be carried in a man’s coat pocket or a ladies purse that was made in Springfield Mass back in 1888 (the first of these models was mades decade’s earlier…S&W’s first concealable revolver was made in the 1850s) I own a Colt Pocket pistol (Same model as carried concealed by Peter Laurie as Joel Cairo in “The Maltese Falcon”, mine rolled off the factory line in Hartford Connecticut in 1917) this gun was also explicitly designed for carry in a gentleman’s vest pocket or a ladies purse. Teddy Roosevelt shot a would-be assassin during a political speech with his carry gun. Eleanor Roosevelt carried a S&W Revolver when she was out and about, her husband Franklin preferred a FN Browning .32 Automatic.
It wasn’t until the 1960s when the notion that gun control to limit the concealment of handguns was even considered, and even then only in a few select places. My home state of Maine, and most of New England for that matter, conceal carry has ALWAYS been legal in one form or another. Today the vast majority of America is shall-issue conceal carry.
So even if your rebuttal was true (it isn’t, obviously) you should be convinced to be more permissive of the right to carry concealed for all Americans because it’s the appropriate thing.
#5 by R. Stanton Scott at February 6th, 2010
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Introducing a firearm into an innocuous conflict (not “conversation”) increases the chance that one party or the other might be killed if only because it increases the possibility of accidental death from zero to some positive probability. Simple math shows this, without regard for presentation of “evidence.”
In any case, while firearms may “even the scale” on some level, arguing that this somehow permits the weak to protect themselves where they otherwise couldn’t grossly oversimplifies matters, since it assumes that the stronger would not similarly arm themselves, nor seek to use surprise to change the new power balance. Further, arming the “weak” doesn’t simply even the power balance with the strong, it in fact changes the definition of “strong.” Since you proceed from the false assumption that the “weak” are also always the good or the victim, your construction takes no account of how the formerly weak use their new advantage. Indeed, some would argue that power itself leads to abuse, so arming weak individuals could simply change which group dominates the other. You may, of course, argue that arming everyone solves this problem by leveling the playing field, but I would then restate my earlier expressed worry about the effect of this on the potential for collective action within and among groups.
Yes, my swashbuckling friend, I give a lot of thought to these rebuttals–which in part explains why I don’t immediately respond to every comment as if this were a chat room. Without knowing just what you mean by “reason,” I would respond that “appropriateness” differs from “reason” in that we use the latter in the construction of the former. Our construction of what we consider “appropriate” behavior is dynamic, as you point out: some of us once considered apartheid “appropriate.” But this changed, partially because opponents of this construct made reasoned arguments against it.
The point here is that we don’t go about using “reason” every moment of every day. Most of the time we simply behave according to the socially constructed sense of what “good behavior” looks like. This does not mean that everyone shares all of these understandings, as you also point out: they vary from country to country, and even within local or tribal groups.
So in point of fact, I agree with almost everything you say here. Human rights generally, and gun rights specifically, have a place in the social reality we have constructed in America. This does not, or course, mean that “rights” are in any way “natural,” nor that a justice claim to a right to carry a firearm is not contestable and contested. My point all along has been that this is a social, not a natural construction, and therefore subject to change–in part using reason.
#6 by Weer'd Beard at February 6th, 2010
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“Introducing a firearm into an innocuous conflict (not “conversation”) increases the chance that one party or the other might be killed if only because it increases the possibility of accidental death from zero to some positive probability. Simple math shows this, without regard for presentation of “evidence.”
Umm it’s also felony assault in most states, and that’s WITHOUT any rounds getting fired. You introduce a firearm in an “innocuous conflict” and rounds end up being discharged the criminal charges go SKY HIGH.
If you don’t like illegal behavior, work to help the cops and judges punish that behavior. Don’t attempt to make illegal behavior “More illegaler”
“as you point out: some of us once considered apartheid “appropriate.” But this changed, partially because opponents of this construct made reasoned arguments against it.”
So again you point out that Marko is correct. There are two means of getting something accomplished, force, and reason.
#7 by Mike at February 6th, 2010
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At least Stan admits to having no evidence. I guess that’s a start.
#8 by Weer'd Beard at February 8th, 2010
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http://weerdbeard.livejournal.com/638255.html
#9 by Thomas at February 8th, 2010
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I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past.–Patrick Henry
Humans and society don’t work they way you wish to imagine them and humans social interactions and proclivities haven’t noticeably evolved since the cave men, we just have faster ways of sharing information and better technology. Humans haven’t noticeably improved in demeanor, nor behavior according to any historical record I’ve ever seen. Utopian Fantasies of peaceful human societies are just that, Utopian Fantasies. Don’t get your hopes up.
The past tells this Thomas that owning firearms is a good thing. The past and history tell Thomas that gun controllers readings of history are skewed, as they approach the discussion with a theory they wish to prove, rather than gathering all available evidence and looking as to what the evidence shows.
Interesting aside–John Hinckley’s family was and is friendly with the Bush family, socially and in business relationships. What are the odds that the relatively wealthy son (sort of an indirect trust fund baby, minded by his family) of a friend of the former CIA director wouldn’t have been able to get a handgun to shoot James Brady with? Interesting question isn’t it. I wish to have the chance to ask Sarah that some day and I’d also ask her why she couldn’t ahve afforded her son a nicer rifle than a base model Remington 700 when she got in bad press over buying him a .30-06. She should have gotten him a Dakota or Shilen or something, she has the money. Gun controllers paid her enough to have money to buy her son a rifle.
First rule of criminal investigation, gather evidence–>then formulate theory. Don’t do it backwards or you are begging the evidence.
Perhaps one might read the thoughtful book, “Guns And violence” by Joyce Lee Malcolm? She is a thoughtful UK subject that wanted to actually see what the connection was, if any. As she said “Behind the passionate debate over gun control and armed crime lie untested assumptions about the connection between firearms and violence….Further, (There is a presumption) that legislation is capable of reducing the quantity of guns available to those individuals likely to commit crime.” You might check it out, it would be instructive to you.
#10 by Weer'd Beard at February 10th, 2010
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It appears Stan has given up.
Don’t be a coward about it Stan, at least SAY you give up.
#11 by R. Stanton Scott at February 11th, 2010
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Wow, man. This statement is so monumentally stupid it scarcely merits a response:
If you actually believe this, you are far too stupid to even understand anything I’ve said–which explains a lot.
Virtually everything about human social interaction has changed since the “cave men,” starting with information sharing (development of language), technology (wheels, tools) and including the development of religion, the idea that individual human lives have value, and the development of the very concept of the firearm itself, not to mention the “right” to possess one that you claim. “Cave men” (whatever that means) had no concept of any of these things.
Almost everything about human interaction has changed just since the birth of Christ, much less since the time of the “cave men.” Are you seriously asserting that 21st Century human beings interact the same as Neanderthal Man?
Seriously? Forgive me for saying so, Thomas, but this statement makes me question your ability to understand anything about history, much less to reason clearly about what it means. If you said something like this in a philosophy or political science class your own fellow undergrads would rip you to shreds. This is truly one of the silliest over generalizations of human history I have ever heard anyone make.
Bringing in Malcolm’s book doesn’t help much, given that her discussion of the American experience with guns depends largely on John Lott’s discredited work.
But for the record, let me say that I completely agree with the Dicey quote she introduces the book with:
You guys just cannot shake the notion that I think disarming the general population is a good idea. But I have never argued for discouraging self help–only for its regulation. I believe that excessive reliance on “self-assertion” damages some of the social norms we depend on for collective action. Indeed, some of your rhetoric suggests that I may have a point: one of your central claims is that state agencies cannot adequately protect you, and self-reliance therefore matters. The very argument you use to support your position depends on framing collective action as ineffective. No one disputes that it sometimes is, but framing it so contributes to this state of affairs.
No give up over here, Bearded one. But not much time to waste on ridiculous, demonstrably wrong statements like the one Thomas makes here.
#12 by Weer'd Beard at February 11th, 2010
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ahhh, so you’ve been proven wrong, but you SAY you’re right, but won’t prove it or cite anything.
Hey it worked for MikeB302000, I guess its worth a try for you too.
Especially since the smarmier a person is, the more correct they are, right?
Thankfully I never had much faith in you in the first place, Stan. Still I’d wish you’d be around more for the sake of my entertainment.
#13 by R. Stanton Scott at February 11th, 2010
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“Smarmier?”
Huh?
Oh, well. Not sure how you define “proven,” but I would suggest that nothing any of us say in this discussion–my claims about the social construction of reality nor yours about firearm “rights” and the effects of an armed citizenry on crime–has to do with anything that you or I could ever “prove,” defined as “show objectively true beyond any doubt.”
Defined as “some guy on the internet who pretends to be a pirate says it’s true or not” then perhaps you have a point.
Anyway, I’m happy to hear that you find this entertaining.
#14 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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this statement makes me question your ability to understand anything about history, much less to reason clearly about what it means.
Pretty rich coming from you Stan.
but I would suggest that nothing any of us say in this discussion has to do with anything that you or I could ever “prove.”
And right here Stan is why I have little respect for your positions. An opinion which you cannot or will not attempt to back up with logic & facts is one that should not be given much weight at all.
You’ve shown an astounding inability to back up what you say and buttress your argument with evidence.
As for this post, you’ve done a piss-poor job attempting to refute Marko’s basic premise, and an even worse job defending your position in comments. As for the latter, it seems that’s par for the course for you.
#15 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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You might want to take a look at the myriad of ridiculous, demonstrably wrong statements you’ve made before you start accusing others.
Those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones Stan.
#16 by R. Stanton Scott at February 12th, 2010
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I’m happy to let anyone who happens to wander by make the call on whether or not my challenge to Mr. Kloos’ position effectively refutes it. That it does not convince you surprises me not in the least, and makes not the slightest bit of difference to me, mostly because I have little confidence in your ability to even consider anything which does not fit your preconceived ideas about the world. The cognitive dissonance is strong in you, grasshopper.
In any event, it’s not clear how your positions hold any more objective truth than mine–except of course in your own mind. Indeed, if answers to questions like the one raised here had the obvious objective answers you seem to think they do, discussions like this one would have little meaning.
So point out one of the “demonstrably wrong” statements I have made, and demonstrate that it was incorrect with “logic and facts.”
The obvious and demonstrably true fact that civilization existed long before the invention of the gun shows that the foundation of human civil interaction depends on something other than our potential for blowing each others’ brains out. And the demonstrably true fact that humans invented religion since the time of the “cave men” shows the abject silliness of Thomas’ statement.
Civilization does not come from the barrel of a gun, and human beings govern their interactions more often with normative understandings about appropriateness than with force or persuasion. And these norms have changed, significantly, since the “cave men” were dragging their women into the cave by the hair.
Sorry, but the Manichean black-and-white world you want to live in does not exist, and it never has.
#17 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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So point out one of the “demonstrably wrong” statements I have made, and demonstrate that it was incorrect with “logic and facts.”
Your posts are littered with them, and I’ve pointed them out to you many times.
I can’t help you if you choose to ignore questions posed to you & facts presented that prove you incorrect. Of course it does make one understand why you consistently run away from debate and avoid answering said questions or discussing said facts. Facts & logic are fatally damaging to your ideology, therefore you must evade them or your ideology will crumble.
human beings govern their interactions more often with normative understandings about appropriateness than with force or persuasion
Guess what that’s backed up with Stan. Force. Not just individual force but collective force of governmental institutions. (with guns) Force is used against social deviants in order to punish certain behaviors.
#18 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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The obvious and demonstrably true fact that civilization existed long before the invention of the gun shows that the foundation of human civil interaction depends on something other than our potential for blowing each others’ brains out.
Civilization existed, but it was one ruled by brute strength. Guns changed the balance of power in society in a manner never before seen. They made it so that the youngest & strongest of the human race no logner had a monopoly on force.
No other tool in history has allowed women & other physically weaker members of socity the means of effective defense.
It is also demonstrably true that humans have been killing eachother long before guns came along. Somehow folks like you believe that guns are the “problem” when predatory violence is as old as mankind.
#19 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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Civilization does not come from the barrel of a gun
Civilization is governed by coercive force. At some point on the force continuum men with guns come to do the coercing.
Since the state maintains the real force monopoly, and exercises it through its security agencies, Mr. Kloos’ roaming muggers would have at least some competition. Thinking otherwise depends on two contestable assumptions: that criminals could arm themselves despite a general firearms ban, and that the police are ineffective
There’s nothing contestable about either. The police cannot possibly defend you from attack. It is a logical impossibility and police are reactionary in nature. Furthermore, they are under no legal obligation to defend individual citizens from harm.
There’s nothing contestable about your 1st point either. Criminals CAN and DO arm themselves (with firearms) despite general firearms bans.
These are not “contestable assumptions” they are reality. That you choose to remain willfully ignorant of reality does not make it go away.
#20 by Weer'd Beard at February 12th, 2010
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Well at least when he’s wrong, he’s rude about it.
I’m very curious what Stan is attempting with his unorthodox tactics.
….well besides trying to cloud reality…
#21 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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Weer’d – It would appear he’s simply progressing down the “Sad But Predictable” path….
#22 by Weer'd Beard at February 12th, 2010
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Yep. They’re really all the same, be they high-paid lobbyists like Helmke or Sugermann, or Politicians like Obama or McCarthy, or simple low-lives like MikeB302000, or Mike Licht, or open and abject trolls like Laci or Jadegold, there really isn’t much variation in the programming.
And as you’ve predicted time and time-again, they all follow a set path.
#23 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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I’ll quote yet another essay by Marko Kloos entitled “Give Them Nothing” He says it about as succinctly as can be said.
“It’s mind-boggling to me that there are people who perpetuate the dangerous myth that you can rely on the humanity and reason of a person who is already threatening to kill you over the contents of your wallet, an entirely inhumane and unreasonable act in itself.”
Someone who’s initial interaction with me is to use deadly force to get what they want is not someone I benefit from reasoning with. He’s already chosen not to reason with me. Attempting to use reason with such a person is madness, as I would be putting my life at the mercy of someone who is unreasonable by default and whose actions convey wanton disregard for my life.
If YOU want to reason with such people be my guest, but don’t you dare advocate that others be bound to that choice.
#24 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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Sorry, I would be remiss if I didn’t like to Marko’s piece
http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/10/29/give-them-nothing/
#25 by mike w. at February 12th, 2010
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As Tam pointed out Stan, you have no problem with guns for defense per se, so long as we all outsource the task of self-defense to the state and abrogate our rights and personal responsbilities.
You’re OK with a woman being raped who calls the cops to bring their guns to the scene and hopefully stops the attack in time, you just don’t want her to have the means to stop the attack with her own gun.
If you want to rely on a phone call that hopefully brings a loaded gun to your aid in time that’s fine by me. Since a gun at the scene is infinitely more helpful I’ll stick with that approach. If you and your ilk didn’t want to deny your fellow americans that choice we wouldn’t have a problem.
#26 by Weer'd Beard at February 12th, 2010
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I was mentioning that point to my Mechanic. He mentioned if his shop was ever robbed he’d simply give the money in the register to the crook.
I pointed out that if a crook has a gun or a knife and threatens to harm you unless you give them money. If you comply the person who has threatened to kill you still has the weapon, and has still threatened to kill you, and now has some money. That’s not a much better place to be.
Especially given the number of people who are shot AFTER they comply with a robber’s demands. (and not including people that the criminal demands non-monetary things like access to a woman’s body)
And of course Stan will ignore these points, because it’s easier than confronting a backwards, and bigoted ideology.
#27 by mike w. at March 9th, 2010
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Yep, another post completely abandoned by Stan.