Many of the gun rights advocates I come across in my readings make a claim that an armed citizenry places a check on oppressive government. Public officials, they say, including the police, should fear the population, and worry that armed insurrection is possible. They especially like the Hitler Used Gun Control to Keep Power myth, though the 1938 Waffengesetz arguably loosened gun laws in Germany and facilitated gun ownership. Government, they suggest, is not an agent of a citizenry acting as a principal and controlling it through participatory democracy. It instead has its own agency, independent of the will of the people, with interests opposing that of the people. In this formulation, the purpose of the Second Amendment, is to ensure that citizens have the tools needed to perpetuate this threat, and to carry it out in the event government becomes oppressive, since citizen participation in democratic institutions is not sufficient to direct government action.
This of course leaves several things unclear. First, it is not clear what specific government actions might lead to insurrection. Presumably, potential causes include percieved rights violations, particularly attacks on gun rights. Excessive taxation might also create popular support for armed rebellion in the US, or declaration of martial law would trigger revolt. Among certain parts of the population, even cultural change could cause unrest, or broad legalization of abortion. But potential insurrectionists say nothing about how they define any of this, or why exactly their justice clam should privilege against government institutions in a democratic society responding to the general population. In any event, actual real life attacks on civil liberties related to fighting terrorism has not generated a response from these people, which suggests that their real concern isn’t oppressive government policies, but government policies they don’t like. When they cannot get what they want through the political process, they claim rights violations and threaten insurrection. Since it appears that only government action against certain sub groups (e.g. gun owners) would trigger revolution, and infringement on the rights of other tribes has not inflamed the passions of most Second Amendment supporters, these people look more like sore losers than freedom lovers.
Insurrectionist rhetoric raises a second question: what goals might contemporary revolutionaries seek to achieve, and on what conditions, besides an armed citizenry, would success depend?
Say for example Congress passed much more restrictive weapons regulations, and even mandated confiscation of certain types of firearms. However unlikely this would be today, shifts in demographics (e.g. further shift from a rural to an urban population) and social norms about guns (which I predict), could create a large enough constituency for stronger government restrictions on firearm ownership. This could happen in the context of crime (or terrorism–imagine small al Qaeda bands shooting up shopping malls) control and include restrictions on hand guns or automatic weapons (to home use, for example), or an effort to reduce the number of weapons in circulation, and require owners to surrender all but a certain number or type of gun. Congress might first act to repeal the Second Amendment, or amend it to make either an individual or collective right to bear arms more clear. In any event, this could not happen without some consensus among the general population, since without it elected officials would expect and receive rebuke at the polls soon thereafter.
Would gun owners reject the power of Congress to amend the Constitution in this way, despite the clear intent of the Founders, based on a natural right to self defense? Should their political efforts (courts, elections) prove unsuccessful, what revolutionary goals would they seek to achieve? Overturned elections? Revision of the court system? A new Constitution? Do they expect the Americans who supported this policy, won at the ballot box and in the political system, and like the result to roll over and surrender their policy victory at the brandishing of weapons?
Anti-government rhetoric has increased dramatically since Reagan claimed that “government is the problem.” With tea party partisans and gun rights advocates challenging the legitimacy of government, these are not academic questions. Large numbers of Americans challenge the legitimacy not only of government, but of the political system we use to set policy and act collectively.
I submit that threatening violent insurrection in the face of political defeat is in fact a treasonous threat to overthrow the legitimately constituted government, and this itself justifies confiscation of firearms.
#1 by R. Stanton Scott at July 31st, 2010
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You may want to take a look at an article my Martha Finnemore and Kathryn Sikkink, “International Norm Dynamics and Political Change.” (Decent summary here).
The authors discuss the issue in terms of international relations, but the article gives a good explanation of how normative understandings can change.
You may also want to look at part one of Alexander Wendt’s book, Social Theory of International Politics, where he lays out the difference between natural and social kinds I discussed in this post.
The plain fact is that many societies throughout human history had no understanding of the value of individual human life that included a “right” to live. To be sure, individual humans have always had a drive to survive, but this is not the same thing as a right to, and the idea of a protected right to live understood by other human beings is a relatively new concept. Until about 1200 ACE, the value of individuals had little meaning outside of his or her connection to society, and the power of monarchs to use the individual lives of their subjects as they pleased saw little challenge. They were, after all, ordained as kings by God.
Gun blogs like yours and Mike’s are full of “Why I Carry” stories about some tragic thing that happened to someone which use the fear of mugging, rape, or murder to argue that citizens should arm themselves so they can fight off such attackers. By your own logic, if society contained no violence, you would not need to arm yourselves. It is difficult to understand this as other than a response to fear of being mugged, raped, or killed.
I never said this is not a good reason to arm yourself. I only observed that this is why Mike carries (unless it’s for compensation), and if he so fears life that he cannot go to the grocery store without a gun he should refrain from challenging the bravery of others.
As for you, you may want to refrain from challenging the reasons why others performed military service until you get off your own butt and do so yourself. You can, after all, thank people like me for whatever “rights” you enjoy.
#2 by Bob S; at July 31st, 2010
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Stan,
I’ll address your other points later you egotistical pompous gas bag but for now, let me address one point.
As for you, you may want to refrain from challenging the reasons why others performed military service until you get off your own butt and do so yourself.
I have done so you arrogant jerk!!!
I served in the Air Force from 1981 to 1985.
This is why you are labeled as a pompous jerk — your automatic assumptions about others
#3 by R. Stanton Scott at July 31st, 2010
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My apologies for making that assumption. I was wrong.
Not sure how that makes me a pompous gas bag (arrogant jerk, perhaps), but I make no apologies for having pride in what I have done.
#4 by Bob S; at July 31st, 2010
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Stan,
It makes you a pompous gas bag because you automatically inflate yourself and assume the worst about others.
If you don’t want to have folks challenging your reason for carrying firearms, don’t challenge other people’s reasons.
Do you carry have fire extinguishers in your home or car?
Are you so fearful of fire then?
You may not feel that carrying firearms is a reasonable response to the fact that evil exists in the world but we do.
If you fear so little from crime, have you contacted your local law enforcement agencies and told them not to respond to any crimes to your person or home?
#5 by R. Stanton Scott at July 31st, 2010
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OK, so I am a pompous gas bag, not to mention an arrogant jerk. And yes, I have a good sense of myself in relation to other people with respect to intelligence, physical strength, bravery, and other traits. Everyone does.
Please forgive me if my judgment about these things, and my willingness to convey my confidence in myself, offends you.
No, I do not have fire extinguishers in my car or home. It never occurred to me that I should fear the small chance of fire. I instead take steps to ensure no fire starts. This may not be wise. But it is my calculation.
Nor do I fear something happening to me that I might want to stop using a firearm. I calculate the odds as less than those of an accident or other tragic event that could not happen if I have no weapon. Again, unwise in your view, but that is my opinion.
I do not, however, blame others for having these fears or wanting to act on them, Though my preference would be a gun-free society, I am not silly enough to think this is possible. And I think the justice claim you make has merit in the current social environment. So no, I do not think the law should prevent trained, law-abiding citizens from arming themselves as a way to calm their fears or deal with a situation.
But I believe that the Constitution does not protect this justice claim, that a “right” to gun ownership or self-protection has no natural (or supernatural) source, and that if government allows private citizens to arm themselves without serving in a militia it should regulate it with a strict training and licensing regime.
States, at least, have this power because they have the authority to train the militia according to standards set by Congress. Even gun “rights” advocates have argued that all citizens comprise the militia, and if this is so any citizen seeking to own private firearms has arguably made a claim that he wants to serve a role in the militia, which requires a firearm. This would give a State authority to ensure proper training.
One more thing: if you want to use Heller as evidence of the Founders’ intent, you may want to read Stevens’ dissent. He makes a far better case that at least one of the Founders had no intention of enshrining a private right to self-defense or individual gun ownership in the Second Amendment. More on this soon.
[Revised slightly for clarity.]
#6 by Mike at July 31st, 2010
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Wow! Someone has a massive ego. Another anti-gun narcissist. What a surprise.
I could fisk your latest ignorant comment. Oh wait, you don’t allow that because it makes you look bad.
If Stevens dissent is the best defense of your postion you can muster then you really don’t have an intellectually honest argument.
#7 by Mike at August 1st, 2010
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Bob – I have to laugh at Stan pulling out the penis jokes. That’s the last refuge of the intellecually deficient. It’s an admission of defeat on Stans part.
#8 by R. Stanton Scott at August 1st, 2010
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And they are particularly funny when referring to your penis, Mike.
Yes, I have a lot of self confidence. Making something of your life will do that for you.
You think Stevens’ argument has no intellectual force, but I’m the intellectually deficient one. Someone isn’t keeping up.
Not here to win or lose debates anyway. Just talking. Move on if the conversation doesn’t suit you.
#9 by Weer'd Beard at August 3rd, 2010
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“Not here to win or lose debates anyway. Just talking.”
That’s pretty obvious. Minds are changed and debates are won with facts and logic.
Not your strong suit, I don’t blame you for giving them a wide berth.
#10 by R. Stanton Scott at August 3rd, 2010
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My, Weer’d, how logical and factual of you!
#11 by Bob S. at August 3rd, 2010
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Stan,
I’m still working on the “rights are made by social consensus” issue.
How about walking me through the basics, eh?
Let’s say that I’m washed up on the shores of an unclaimed, unknown but resource rich desert island.
I’m the only one on the island so I start working to build what I need to survive; build a shelter, grow food, corral and breed animals, etc.
Now, I know that I have normative references from my own past — but I’m trying here so hopefully you’ll give me a break.
Since I’m the one doing the work — do I have a right to the result of my labor?
Please explain if no.
Now, if another person gets washed upon the shores; what changes?
I know I have (again from my normative frame of reference) a responsibility to help him/her get on their feet and get going.
Does that person have a right to the results of my labors?
I’m not talking about my responsibility to help but his/her right to the food I’ve grown, the shelter I’ve built, etc.
#12 by Weer'd Beard at August 3rd, 2010
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“y, Weer’d, how logical and factual of you!”
Great non-response. Why did you even bother?
#13 by R. Stanton Scott at August 3rd, 2010
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Not sure there’s an elevator version, Bob. First I would point out that “rights” are not made, nor justice claims resolved, by “social consensus” reached after deliberation. They depend on the social construction of shared ideas about right and wrong.
I wonder what meaning a “right” to the results of your labor has without at least one other person to validate or contest the claim. Any thoughts on this?
Think of individuals in the state of nature (see Hobbes and Locke, for example), unaware of each other but not alone in the universe. All have ideas about the world–why the physical universe behaves as it does–but no “rights” exist because without others to interact with, the thought never enters the mind.
The “right” comes to have meaning only when the second person washes up bringing with him or her a competing justice claim: his right to life (in the form of an immediate demand on some of your resources) and your right to the fruits of your labor.
A shared understanding of how this justice claims should be resolved simplifies matters greatly. But it becomes a question not because of some natural law or god-given right. It becomes a question only because two or more humans interact.
#14 by R. Stanton Scott at August 3rd, 2010
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A non-response to a non-comment, Weer’d.
Why do you even bother?
#15 by Bob S. at August 4th, 2010
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Stan,
Thanks for the response. What I don’t get is that if the product of my labor is mine when I am alone and uncontested (my right to that labor), then how does that change if there is another person.
Are you saying that if 2 people wash up on shore, they can reach social consensus that I should continue to labor while they sleep in my shelter, eat my food?
The thought does enter the mind, it has to. “I work so I can survive” that is a thought. “The stuff I produce helps me survive” — possession of property.
Even if a person is doing nothing more then protecting that property against nature (don’t want it to get rained on and spoiled) or against animals (I better keep the lions, tigers and bears out of the stock pen) — the thought of property exists, right?
What you see as rights no existing without another person, I see as the limits of pre-existing rights.
Because I’m already alive, I have a right to continue to do so. Doesn’t matter if 1 or 100 people wash up on the shore, that fact doesn’t change.
Now they may have the ability to enforce their view (there are more of us so we are going to kill you) but does it change the fact that the efforts I’ve gone through are mine and the results of those efforts should be mine to dispose of?
The “right” comes to have meaning only when the second person washes up bringing with him or her a competing justice claim: his right to life (in the form of an immediate demand on some of your resources) and your right to the fruits of your labor.
This is where I don’t get it, are you saying that because someone has a right to life that they have —regardless of effort, ownership, etc — to the stuff that I have?
Their right to life is the same as mine was when I washed up on shore, minus the areas I’ve developed.
They can forage, they can corral animals, they can fish, they can grown — their right to life —That All Men are Created Equal thing hasn’t changed because I am there.
Again, my responsibility changes but not my rights. I have a responsibility to help (many hands make light work and all). I have a responsibility to not let people starve IF I can.
#16 by R. Stanton Scott at August 4th, 2010
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A thoughtful comment deserves a thoughtful response.
The “I work so I can survive” and “the stuff I produce helps me survive” thoughts enter the mind, but it makes no sense to think of this as a “right” to survive or to property until interaction with others either challenges or validates the concepts. In your example the previously held norms include this thought so you think of it this way, but remember that the normative beliefs you bring with you to the island arose from interactions with others prior to your becoming a castaway.
Imagine someone alone in a state of nature who has never encountered another human being. He or she will certainly have a desire to survive, and some feeling of accomplishment from having worked to do so, but “rights” to property or survival have no meaning without validation or challenge through interaction with others. The question of whether you have a “right” to life or property simply does not present itself until another social actor comes along to give it meaning by demanding part of your resources in the name of his own competing justice claim to life.
No, I am not saying that someone has a “right to life” which trumps your justice claim to the fruits of your labor. I am saying that unless you share norms with the new addition to your island society–e.g., that you should not let people starve if you can help them–his or her claim competes with yours for primacy in the event you do not share a normative framework that helps resolve the claim. In the case of first contact, these frameworks develop through interaction as you go through the process of learning about the other and choosing conflict or cooperation. Even a violent reaction creates a nascent normative framework, e.g., property rights trump survival rights and justify violent defense of what you produced, but no framework has meaning without a competing justice claim and this requires at least one other social actor.
#17 by Bob S. at August 4th, 2010
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Stan,
Sorry but this is where I don’t buy it. You say that the desire to survive is there but the right to property has no meaning without interaction but it seems you forget that man interacts with his environment.
Weather can destroy what a person has accomplished, the fruits of his labor. If a person wants to protect ‘his property’ then action needs taken to protect what he has worked for — versus what has grown in the wild.
Also, animals affect man’s thoughts and views. Certainly a cow raised from a calf is the man’s and not the predators — the idea of personal property and the rights to keep it arise from nature.
The limitations on the extent of personal property arise from interactions with others. If I’m on a deserted island, I don’t own all of that land certainly. If others land, they have a right to work the land that I’m not using.
his or her claim competes with yours for primacy in the event you do not share a normative framework that helps resolve the claim.
I’m not sure I understand this, so I’m going to give it a whack.
Are you saying that His/her idea that they need to eat, I have food available — note that other food is available on the island, they just have to work for it — is equally fair and valid as my claim to the fruits of my labor?
#18 by R. Stanton Scott at August 4th, 2010
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What exactly does it mean to make a justice claim of a right to property against a wolf trying to eat your calf? This is a pure power relationship–you are either powerful enough to limit nature’s effects on your property or you are not. The wolf will not respond to your reasoned argument supporting your right to property. Between you and the wolf you have only competing efforts, not rights, since the wolf has no understanding of the concept of “rights.”
The second arrival, by the way, may not share such an understanding either, but he or she will arrive with some notion of the fairness or validity of the claim which the wolf by definition cannot ever have. And you can at least present the concept to him or her in a way you cannot with the wolf, and reason with them about a resolution to any conflicting claims.
I am saying that your justice claim has no intrinsic validity based on nature until you agree with others through interaction and discourse that it does. The new arrival may or may not think of his claim to your food as fair and valid, depending on his normative framework. But it depends on shared (or unshared) understandings about life and property, not a supernatural being or your mere existence. Rather, the interaction with the new arrival gives it fairness or validity by creating discourse about (or conflict over) it which resolves the issue.
#19 by Bob S. at August 4th, 2010
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Stan,
You talk about differing justice claims and normative frameworks but that doesn’t invalidate the basic position of natural rights.
It may mean that others don’t protect those rights, don’t agree they exist etc, but it by no means shows they don’t exist.
Just because the other person may or may not accept my rights — how is that not as much of a pure power relationship as with the wolf?
If reason doesn’t work, then force is needed to protect my rights….my individual rights, correct?
Pure power relationships. Might does not make right.
The extent we agree to cooperate or not that is a social construct but that construct is based on pre-existing rights. Even if a babe washed up on shore, grew up working the land, improving etc — a blank slate of normative references — that person still has the right to what (s)he has produced. Nothing changes that.
#20 by R. Stanton Scott at August 4th, 2010
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Simply stating that “rights” have a natural source does not make it so. Can you make a logical or empirical case that rights arise from nature or God?
I argue that “rights” depend on social interaction and discourse rather than the intrinsic traits of humans because we cannot define or study them without reference to this. Can you define a right to survive or own property without reference to interaction among humans?
And if nature confers “rights,” why doesn’t the wolf, also a part of nature, respect them? And does the wolf then also have “rights?” If not, why not?
I am curious–have you read Locke’s Second Treatise on Government?
#21 by mike w. at August 10th, 2010
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I submit that threatening violent insurrection in the face of political defeat is in fact a treasonous threat to overthrow the legitimately constituted government, and this itself justifies confiscation of firearms.
Simply reminding elected officials of their oaths of office is not a threat to overthrow the government. Furthermore angry rhetoric is not “treasonous” just because you disagree with it. I suggest you add “treason” to the list of terms you don’t understand. Perhaps someone should ship you a dictionary?
Just talking. Move on if the conversation doesn’t suit you.
Your discussion of my penis just highlights the deficiencies of your positions. Anytime some bigot has to resort to penis jokes it’s a sign that they’ve lost the argument and have to take the low-road. I can’t blame you really? It’s all you’ve got and you’re seriously outmatched.
#22 by R. Stanton Scott at August 10th, 2010
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What penis joke? I said “compensation” might be a reason you carry, MIke, if it’s not fear. Your intellectually powerful mind concluded that this referred to the size of your penis without my help.
Which may itself confirm the suspicion.
And later I only opined that yes, I find jokes about your penis especially humorous.
But you made–or maybe are–the penis joke, my friend.
So threatening “violent insurrection” is not the same as threatening the overthrow of the legitimate government?
I know it’s not “reminding elected officials of their oath of office.”
I suppose that yes, your ability to consistently post comments with no content beyond repetitive name calling does indeed exceed my own talent for similar discourse.
#23 by Bob S. at August 12th, 2010
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Stan,
You are setting up straw man arguments so you can paint others as being dangerous.
I submit that threatening violent insurrection in the face of political defeat is in fact a treasonous threat to overthrow the legitimately constituted government, and this itself justifies confiscation of firearms.
Show me evidence that one group of people are threatening violent insurrection just because of political defeat.
The truth is that, like our Founding Fathers, we are respectful of the law. We respect the results of elections — even ones that gives us Obama and a Democratically controlled Congress.
We also, like the Founding Fathers, recognize that there might be a time when the governing body has lost the consent of the governed. That the government no longer follows the Constitutionally mandated limits of it’s power.
So threatening “violent insurrection” is not the same as threatening the overthrow of the legitimate government?
It’s not and you know it.
Maybe you’ve forgotten the Oath you took to uphold the Constitution, but many of us haven’t.
#24 by mike w. at August 12th, 2010
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Unless you need to compensate for size in a certain area. Which is it?
Those were your words, and now you’re cowardly running from them. Hell, you’re too much of a coward to even defend your insults, which is just sad.
Pray tell, since you’re now claiming that the above statement WAS NOT the standard anti-gun “penis joke,” to which part of my anatomy were you referring? The size of my foot, my big toe? my hands?
I also have to laugh at you whining about Bob S. taking a mean, insulting, condescending tone with you. Take a look in the mirror Stan, or just read your comments in this post.
You speak so much about your own supposed “bravery” but I’d bet money that when push comes to shove you wouldn’t be the one kicking in doors to confiscate my or Bob’s property.
You aren’t even intellectually brave enough to defend your positions on this blog. Given that, I seriously doubt you’d be dumb enough to try and come confiscate my guns.
#25 by R. Stanton Scott at August 12th, 2010
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I asked a serious question Mike. Not joking.
Either you fear life without your gun handy, or you don’t feel like a man unless you carry. Which causes you to strap on your iron every day?
Yes, indeed, if I were in uniform and received a lawful order to confiscate your gun, your door is toast.
And you sound more and more like a kid who thinks he knows something because he made it to 2L. Please tell me if you ever litigate a case. Gotta see that.
#26 by Bob S. at August 12th, 2010
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Stan,
You are being a pompous ass again!!!
There are other choices then your insulting and derogatory options.
Some of us analyze the information, evaluate the statistics and the consequences, then decide to carry.
I thought you were above spouting the anti-rights slurs like that.
What a disappointment.
#27 by mike w. at August 13th, 2010
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Bob – It’s called making a responsible decision based on rational self-interest, something Stan would know nothing about.
If my dick could propel lead at ~1200 feet per second as a means of defending my life I suppose I wouldn’t bother with the gun. In reality of course the two serve different purposes and neither compensates for the other. That is, unless you think a gun is more than just an inanimate object, a tool.
You are being a pompous ass again!!!
Bob, this is the only way Stan knows how to act.
Yes, indeed, if I were in uniform and received a lawful order to confiscate your gun, your door is toast.
Good to know you can break down doors Stan. Doesn’t change the fact that I’d treat you the same as any other two bit thug that tried to enter my home. I suspect you wouldn’t enter all that many homes before you ended up with a few holes in you. A smart man would refuse to engage in such confiscations, if not out of personal integrity then out of a sense of basic self-interest.
#28 by R. Stanton Scott at August 13th, 2010
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Mike correctly points out I never stopped being a pompous ass, Bob.
Whether or not information and statistics is what scared you so much, in the end you arm yourself because you are plainly and simply afraid not to. In the end, people who carry guns for self defense do so because they are scared something will happen to them–so they want to carry in bars, churches, schools, and everywhere else. You have all but said so yourself, many times, but if you want to change your tune just tell me: what other reason could there be?
Like a stoned sophomore in a 2 AM dorm discussion, Mike thinks government will confiscate his guns by breaking down his doors while he is at home to defend them. Our budding attorney pal might want to read the Patriot Act for some insight into how this would really go down if it ever happened, but that would destroy his heroic fantasy of protecting his freedom by killing police officers enforcing the law.
Should I happen to be one of them, my sense of duty would trump my self interest, as it has many times before. But Mike wouldn’t know anything about that.
#29 by Bob S. at August 13th, 2010
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Stan,
I apologize, you are right. You’ve never stopped being a pompous ass. You’ve just taken your asshattery to another level.
Whether or not information and statistics is what scared you so much,
Stop project your feelings all over me Sparky!
I’m not scared. I’ve made a reasonable, intelligent, rational and logical decision based on the facts available.
In the end, people who carry guns for self defense do so because they are scared something will happen to them
The odds are something will happen to people during their life time. If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise that is your right.
While the odds of something happening on any one day or occasion are low, the cumulative odds are fairly high and the consequences of not being prepared are definitely higher.
Or do you deny reality and think that no one ever gets hurt by criminals?
so they want to carry in bars, churches, schools, and everywhere else.
Well, maybe you can point out a place where crime has never occurred but I can’t think of one.
I lived less then 1 mile from Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth when a deranged individual shot several people. This was before concealed common — less then 4 years after the law went into effect. Yep. I want to carry where ever I go because I know the odds of a cop being there to stop the crime is extremely low.
Mike thinks government will confiscate his guns by breaking down his doors while he is at home to defend them.
Maybe you need a dose of reality — but didn’t they do exactly that during Katrina????
In case of a state of emergency, don’t you think that travel would be curtailed — before the order for firearm confiscation went out?
You can deny reality all you like Stan, doesn’t change the fact and throwing out side arguments is showing badly you are loosing the debate.
Should I happen to be one of them, my sense of duty would trump my self interest, as it has many times before. But Mike wouldn’t know anything about that.
And the personal attacks against Mike W. show not only what a rude inconsiderate jack ass you are but how shallow and vapid you and your argument is.
Since Mike W. is too much of a gentleman to mention it, I will. Sometimes no matter how patriotic or how much of a sense of duty a person has, there are reasons they might not be able to serve.
Having a child with Cerebral Palsy can be difficult. I am an extremely mild case and yet my condition put a lot of extra stress on my parents.
Your petty insults show how petty you are — and personally, I’m appalled that you share the title of veteran with me.
#30 by mike w. at August 24th, 2010
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Bob – Stan is just doing what he always does when entering into a discussion with me. He resorts to insults because he’s arguing from an inferior position. It’s sad but oh so predictable.
But hey, at least he admits to being a pompous ass with no intellectual and factual basis to any of the crap he spews on this blog.
#31 by R. Stanton Scott at August 24th, 2010
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Come on, Bob. You raise the Katrina state of emergency in a discussion of armed insurrection against the government or a lawful change in the Constitution which permits legislative control of civilian firearms as if this is a good example. But I’m the guy who brings up side issues. Sheesh.
And all your discussion of Wedgewood Baptist Church and “maybe you can point out a place where crime has never occurred but I can’t think of one” just proves my point: you carry a gun because you are scared to go out in the world without one. You think it’s justified, but most people don’t, and it’s still an irrational fear.
Mike is many things, perhaps including a cerebral palsy sufferer who could not serve in the military. But he is no gentleman.
My positions have a solid logical, intellectual, and factual basis, and you both know I have no need to resort to insults. You think I do because you find the truth insulting. That’s not my problem.
#32 by Mike at August 24th, 2010
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Thanks for proving my point Stan. If your conduct is the measure of a “gentleman” then I’ll take your intended insult above as a compliment.
You say “I have no need to resort to insults” all while losing arguments and, surprise surprise, resorting to insults in lieu of reasoned, intellingent, cited and factually accurate positions. You are sad but predictable.
#33 by R. Stanton Scott at August 25th, 2010
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Well, Mike, we both had a hand in making this personal. In any event, you don’t see me crying like a little girl because someone with a blog said something mean to me.
You may want to develop thicker skin–as you have suggested to others. Or just crawl back over to your corner of the web and ignore me.
#34 by mike w. at August 25th, 2010
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I’m not whining like a little girl, you’re doing enough of that for both of us. Hell, you’re the guy who cries about the mere tone of someone’s comments, or that someone dares fisk your arguments. Of course you only cry about that because us doing it makes you look bad.
I’m more than happy to continue to take the high road and let you act like a “pompous ass” (as you described yourself)
Keep on flinging your petulant, grade-school insults at me. Not only does it reflect poorly upon you, but it shows anyone who happens to see this thread that you can’t defend your positions with intellect and tact, like a rational adult.
As for this,
but that would destroy his heroic fantasy of protecting his freedom by killing police officers enforcing the law.
First, there is nothing “heroic” about killing in self-defense. It is, regrettably, a necessary evil at times. I hope I go my entire life without having to deal with the legal, moral, and emotional consequences of having to take a life.
Second, when police officers are kicking in doors en masse for the purpose of disarming U.S. citizens and stealing their private property they are no longer “police officers enforcing the law” they are home invading criminals who should be treated as such.
#35 by Bob S. at August 28th, 2010
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Stan,
You can stop your psychological projection of fear now.
Just because I realistically examined the facts — there isn’t a ‘crime free’ zone, I evaluated the odds and the consequences of being a crime victim as part of my decision to carry does not mean that decision was based on fear.
You can whine and bleat like a sheep all you want but the fact it is a logical decision to carry.
We have town after town cutting back on police services, we have an average 911 response time of 6 minutes, we have documented crimes occurring blocks from where I work, live, and shop.
Those are all provable facts.
The decision to carry isn’t made out of fear but out of a sense of responsibility. As a father and husband, I have a responsibility to do what I legally can to protect my family and myself.
You may see that as fear, like I said, projection.
#36 by Bob S. at August 28th, 2010
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Stan,
you both know I have no need to resort to insults
That is probably the most disappointing and disgusting thing about your behavior and you.
You are right, you have no need to resort to insults but you do so on a regular basis.
#37 by R. Stanton Scott at August 28th, 2010
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We both had a hand in making this personal, Bob. So grow some thicker skin–whining about mean things said on the internet doesn’t become a pistol packer like you.
Please explain to me how I project my fear on to you, when I simply don’t worry that I might need to protect myself from all that scary stuff out there with a firearm. You do, and this fear is real, notwithstanding its basis in statistics and logic. You respond to this fear by arming yourself, and you recommend that others do the same.
This is who you are, and it frankly baffles me that I offend you by pointing this out.
#38 by Bob S. at August 30th, 2010
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Stan,
You simply state, without basis of fact or knowledge of my situation that I’m acting out of fear.
The only way you can know that — is you simply can’t.
The truth is you are projecting what you would feel IF you were the one who decided to carry on to me.
You react to the facts, statistics and the severity of the consequences by acting like an ostrich. So bet it, that is your right.
You choose what is right for you but notice that I don’t claim you do it out of fear — I don’t care why you choose not to exercise your rights. I personally think it is rash, reckless and socially irresponsible not to be able to protect yourself or others.
When I referred to being offended, it was by your insults. Your very gratuitous insults; from the wing nuts, gun nuts and other generally insulting terms to the aspirations you can direct on people like Mike W. or myself.
#39 by mike w. at August 30th, 2010
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You choose what is right for you but notice that I don’t claim you do it out of fear.
However one could turn around his claim and say that Stan’s desire to restrict the rights of his fellow citizens is borne out of fear.
#40 by R. Stanton Scott at September 2nd, 2010
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This is not complicated, Bob, and it has nothing to do with projection.
You two are afraid to go outside without arming yourselves. You fear mugging, burglars, carjackers and all the other violence you like to list in your “Why I carry” posts. So you pile up an arsenal and walk around with a hand gun strapped to your body like Marshal fucking Dillon.
I am not, so I don’t.
Simple, really.
#41 by Bob S. at September 3rd, 2010
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Stan,
Much like an addict, you appear to be in denial. You deny the fact that someone can make a logical, non-fear based decision that doesn’t fit your accepted world view.
You project how you would feel….maybe you are afraid of firearms, maybe you are afraid of what you would do or not do if you carried firearms, maybe you are afraid of having to have responsibility for your own safety, maybe you are just afraid or think you would be afraid to be in public with firearms.
I don’t know and frankly I don’t care what your problems are but they are entirely your problems.
See Stan, you don’t know how often I carry or how often I don’t carry. Your statement fails because of that
You two are afraid to go outside without arming yourselves.